Hi, Visitor. My name is David Gill. I am a 39 year-old Christian man who is attracted to men. These are some of my reflections of life, theology, and other things.
I am a man who trusts in Christ alone for his salvation. I believe the good news has been given to God’s Church to announce through preaching of repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Christ. I am Reformed in my doctrine and I love the Scriptures.
I am repeatedly dismayed by many in the Church who think gays are all either unrepentant or just “out there” as an “un-reached people group.” We are within the Church. We are in churches, everywhere, every Sunday morning. If you don’t know any…just wait. Or look around.
What is my message? My primary attractions are towards members of the same sex and my obedience to God’s commands stem from fruit keeping in step with repentance (Luke 3:8). I do not use my sexual attractions to excuse or hide any of my sin. Instead, I address any sins with repentance before God and before those with whom I struggle in my sanctification.
In short, I’m a Christian. And I’m gay.
I am a member of a local church. I have periodically served with my gifts of worship leading, choir direction, music composition and arranging. I completed a Masters of Divinity at Covenant Theological Seminary in 2015. I aim to minister via music, preaching, and teaching in a full-time position. In 2018, 2019, and 2020, I served as the music director for the Revoice Conference.
I am also a huge fan of silent film and have produced musical accompaniments consisting of 1920s film music to accompany the 1922 feature film The Pride of Palomar, the 1926 short film Four Square Steve, and a shortened version of the 1929 British feature film Emerald of the East.
What is my goal on this blog? To let others know that there are those among the brethren who need support and encouragement as they try to find a place in the Church as sexual minorities. If you leave a comment, please include a valid email address. Drive-by comments which I perceive are designed to inflame are not welcomed here.
Gay and Evangelical 
Thank you for the explanation.
The discomfort may come, however, when the term “gay” seems to be worn as a sense of identity, and our identity is ultimately to be in Christ. Obviously you realize that the title of the blog would, for many, convey a sense of pride of the categorization “gay.”
I also am curious as to the unrepentant homosexual in the church’s standing before God (as ANY unrepentant person is)… but I suppose that is a different discussion.
I see this title simply as a description with no pride attached to it, since I don’t see the element of pride anywhere in the posts. The title is to draw in readers who might identify similarly, to knwo that others face the same struggle while holding on to their evangelical faith.
Thank you for having this blog…I came across this today in the middle of my struggles with my brother who is 18 and gay. I’ve been a Christian for almost 4 years now. There is nothing within me that is against his lifestyle.I love and support him unconditionally, now and always. What upsets me is he keeps seeking things that people say against gays to give him an excuse to think God hates him.
It’s disheartening to say the least. And even more disheartening when I see people “of the Church” so to say, be so un-loving to homosexuals. It’s definitely challenged my faith, to say the least…
Just wanted to share my two cents…and thank you for speaking out. God will surely bless you in all your ways…
I somehow stumbled onto your blog that was linked on someone elses blog. I am also a christian who struggles with same sex attraction and it means alot to me to see I am not alone in this struggle.
I will be back for sure!
Interesting perspective yet as I understand it, your perspective on being both gay and Christian is based on buying into the false teaching that the clobber passages all address homosexuality and God’s displeasure with that “sin.”
I believe there are explanations of all the clobber passages which fit the cultural, doctrinal, historical and religious context much better than the explanations of the anti-gay crowd.
Interesting Blog, I got onto here since i recently posted the story of “The Pirate and a King” Off some feela with a weird name (Ninja something!)
I struggle with some issues, Lust being key, Pride too.. and its god to see that you acknowledge its sin! (ive met some “Christians” who deny whats clearly sin and say its not.. Its good to see your not perverting the bible) We know it says in the Psalms or Proverbs (Lack of research I Know!) that Gd hates those who call evil good and good evil. So its good to see you know its sin.
Without taking a knock at you, because the “Gay and Evangelical” title will rake in hits! Am sure.. But like the fella up there said, are new identitys in Christ, and Its in him alone that we glory.
But we all struggle, so ill pray for you, and you remember to pray for me with my many issues! Am sure we could get into some correspondance! 🙂
As you can see to, My O button on my keyboard is USELESS!
How do you approach the verse in Leviticus that states that lying with mankind as with womankind is an abomination to the Lord? I would prefer a different answer than something that alludes to the OT v. NT Christianity because it is all the mercy of God. Also, what is your approach to the mandate (for lack of a better word) to be fruitful and multiply? How can you expect to reach many of the blessings laid out in God’s word as a Christian homosexual?
Excellent questions.
First, my blessing is in Christ, not in my own works. Blessing from God, as you’ll recall, comes by “doing this and you will live.” Remember, anyone who has broken one part of the Law has broken the whole thing. So apart from union with Christ, I am not blessed at all. If I’m *in* Christ, then I am blessed with every spiritual blessing.
Ok…now to your first question. I do not use my attractions to substantiate homosexual behavior. So, when I lust, I confess it for the sin that it is and trust in Christ for my forgiveness, having repented as one who is His. I believe homosexual behavior to be sin. I also believe that Christ died for my sin, which doesn’t give me license, but rather frees me from its curse. Unless you believe in entire sanctification, I think you’d agree that one can struggle (even often) with a sin, requiring one to flee to Christ over and again for relief and forgiveness. This is what I do….it’s a fruit of who I am: Christ’s redeemed, united to Him.
In regards to your final two questions, which are great, I would expect you would not tell the person who never marries that they are not in violation of the mandate to be fruitful and multiply. Similarly, I do not partake in that, but I also, by God’s grace, reject sex outside of the marriage covenant, since the mandate comes to people who are married.
Thanks for stopping by. I hope I answered your questions and if you have more, please ask them.
Your answers to those who accuse are so grace filled and gentle. May the Lord continue to bless you in your desire to honor Him!
Dave…
I really am enjoying your blog and I shared it on my facebook. I’m looking forward to the comments (heh) and God bless you brother! This totally just screams that God is redeeming you and changing you and admire the fact that you are upfront about your struggles yet…are letting all know that you are not PRACTICING homosexuality and you are, by God’s grace, living a life of repentance. People need to hear your story, man!
Thank you for your kind words…I look forward to reading your blog as well!
My hat’s off to you. You have no idea how much I respect someone who has same-sex attractions but avoids acting upon them due to his love of Christ.
Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate your encouragement. Feel free to pop in and comment any time.
I find you refeshingly honest, transparent, humble, and wonderfully yeilded to God. I pray you stay your course and use what you’ve expressed on this page to help others as yourself. You are greatly needed! God bless you!
Hi Dave, a close friend and mentor sent me your link. I find this very interesting. Would you contact me I sent you my email address. It would be great to talk with you by phone.
Blessings
Janet
Hey man – I was sent the link to your blog by a friend and it was so refreshing to read what you have written! I’m also a ‘gay evangelical’ (to put it your way) and it was a great help to see that there is at least one other guy who is in almost the exact same place emotionally and theologically as I am. At last – proof I’m not going crazy!
It be great if you could contact me via email. I’d love to talk to you more about these issues.
God bless
Andy
I look forward to reading more on this site. =)
I love the blog title, especially gay being before evangelical. I have tried most of my life to be evangelical, but felt gay before I felt anything handed to me, spiritually or otherwise.
I am thankful for YOU David; because I knew your parents, one of them my children’s church teacher, the other a longtime influence of his song “City of Gold”, and now especially YOU.
Why couldn’t you have come first?…just kidding. I identify so much with what you say, already sharing things with you. And I think that’s impetus to who we are as people, not just Christians. We are alike, both gay and evangelical.
When our boys go to war, we have people from differing backgrounds conducting team work. The military has always been a litmus of society, the “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” being a test of our military, therefore our society.
Thanks again and keep the FAITH!
I don’t want to start a fight, I am neither Christian or homosexual, but I do think you could do some terrible damage to yourself mentally by trying to be both Christain and homosexual. Christianity is quite clear on it’s views on homosexuality. It states that homosexuality is a sin, is it really? I know what the bible says. But why is homosexuality a sin, what is so problematic about it? The “it’s not natural” argument is tired, as homosexual behaviour is found throughout the world in all societies at fairly stable proportions regardless of a particular societies views on the subject. I am not interested in what non-human animals do as I don’t think it is wise to take moral lessons from other species. The “it doesn’t cause pregnancy” argument is weak, what about infertile couples who have sex are they sinners? As far as I can see the greatest difficulites for a homosexual are not from homosexuality itself but from societies treatment of homosexuals. Anyway these are just some thoughts on the matter, and I wish you all the best in the future.
Greetings, gozzwick, I am also a “gay” Evangelical, and I would add that now that I’m in my late forties that I am seriously struggling with issues of loneliness as a consequence of being a “gay Christian”. It’s one thing when when you are in your 20s and 30s and an introvert and really only having to fight against a craving for sex. When you are in your late forties and all your friends are focused on their families, and your parents are dead and you realize that you have never allowed anyone to get close to you on account of your constant fight against homosexual temptation it does get really lonely.
This said I do think I understand the Bible’s answer on the whole “why” question. The rational given in the Old Testament is that it is confusion. Remember humans are created in the image of God and are supposed to reflect God in every area of life. Many things in the Bible are declared sinful because the action ether reflects some aspect of fallenness in the creator creature relationship or it reflects something untrue about God’s character. Adultery for example becomes a human level metaphor of spiritual adultery which is when we mix faith in the one true God with worship of idols. The OT stops with simply declaring homosexual activity as “confusion”. But in Roman’s Chapter One Paul begins his case against humanity where he ends up declaring the whole world under sin and in need of the gospel by describing the pagan idolatry which is based on confusion regarding who to worship, “creator, or creature.” In this section there is a long list of sins but three are emphasized. The first one is the creator creature confusion. The second one is male and female homosexuality where there is confusion in sexuality. Then the last sin emphasized was disobedience to parents which represents confusion in the area of basic social order. In a sense what you have is homosexuality and disobedience to parents becoming visible representations of the less visible sin of worshiping the creature rather than the creator. One comment which Paul makes about homosexuality is telling of his view of it. He says that they receive in their bodies the penalty for their error. Many Evangelicals assume that Paul is speaking of some sort of physical curse on the bodies of hay people. I don’t think “homosexuality” is the error but the punishment. Their “error” is the creature creator confusion and the punishment in their bodies are the homosexual lusts and practices that spring out of that confusion and symbolically represents it. (This is not to say that people are gay on account of being pagan. I’m still very much homosexual in my orientation even though I’m a Christian and definitely not a pagan.)
Of course, knowing the answer to the “why” question does not make living under the constraints place on us as gay Christians much easier. I suppose its more satisfying than a crass “because I said so.” I confess it still feels like a bad joke to have such powerful sexual urges and even more powerful urges for other things such as human touch, having a companion to come home to and the like which are not necessarily sexual in themselves but are often placed out of reach if you are a gay Evangelical trying to live biblically. The only answers I have to this are the Lord’s commands: “Pick up your cross and follow me.” “He who will save his life shall lose it, and he who will lose his life for Christ sake shall save it.” “and they (Christians) defeated him (the devil) by the blood of the Lam, by the word of their testimony, and by not loving their lives even until death.” “And he said to him (the Rich Young Ruler) go sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor and come follow me.” I can tell you that this cross gets heavier every day that I get older.
I saw your comments at Old Life regarding Rob Bell and wanted to thank you for speaking up. After reading some of your blog, all I can say is: May God richly bless you, keep you, and make his face shine upon you in all of your life.
With respect and gratitude,
Lily
Interesting! As an Anglican priest I see people all the time with sexual problems. But Gay & Evangelical? Seems like an oxymoron. As I tell people we are not our sexual identity, alone. But we are all sinners!
Peace of Christ
Obviously our most basic identity must be in Christ. However, sexual orientation has so many implications for how you have to live that it does kind of overshadow most other aspects of life if you happen to be homosexual. We don’t have a problem which Christians calling themselves plumbers, doctors and nurses. I have had at least three professions in my life and none of them have had quite the same level of life implications for me as the fact that I am a homosexual Christian. Most of us don’t have a problem with people standing up in a meeting and saying, “Hi, I’m an alcoholic.” Some Christians try to say that we should simply talk in terms of “homosexual temptations.” For sure, every sexual temptation I have ever had has been homosexual in nature. But, my life is not a series of disconnected homosexual temptations. Furthermore if a nice looking guy walks into the room, and I notice him, and the endorphins kick in a bit but I don’t want or entertain having sex with the guy, is that really a homosexual temptation? Lets ask the question this way. Does a married straight-man experience a heterosexual temptation every time he notices that he is sexually attracted to a woman to whom he is not married? Quivilling over these kinds of semantics is not helpful. For most of my life I have had to deal with this in complete silence because I was afraid to share information about my sexual orientation with anyone. Then once you do get to the place where I realized that “I have to talk about this or die.” Then suddenly Christians start arguing with you about the identity issues related to saying you’re gay or homosexual. For closeted Christians who need to talk, your quiviling about “sexual identity terminology” is at best demoralizing, and it gets in the way of the gospel’s call to confess our sins to one another. Trust me, being straight is probably a bigger part of your identity than you realize. I wonder how many times you would find yourself saying the words “I’m straight” if you accidentally booked a three week vacation on a gay cruise ship and found yourself to be the only straight person on a 3,000 passenger boat for three weeks.
Indeed before I was a Christian, and fell in love with ONE woman, I was sort of chasing women (and some chasing me), but heck that was many years ago now. Funny too how aging hopefully ‘In Christ’, changes one! WE must always be seeking to fall in love with Christ, again & again! And we really are more than our sexual self!
Just came across your blog from a link from http://wanderingthoughtsofabrokenman.blogspot.com/. I appreciate your thoughts here and would enjoy connecting with you. I teach at Moody Bible Institue, speak around the U.S. on faith and sexuality, and have co-authored a book “Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son’s Journey to God, A Broken Mother’s Search for Hope” released on May 3. You can email me at cy@christopheryuan.com. Have a great day in the Lord!
Hello and thank you for your blog. I have been searching the internet trying to find other Christians with SSA that I could chat with or maybe get some moral support. Hopefully this could lead me to other resources as well. I stumbled onto your blog through another person’s blog.
I am also a Christian who struggles with SSA. I just recently gave my life back to the Lord after 40 years. I have felt broken since I went out on my own at age 19. At that time I couldn’t justify staying in church and being told all the time I was going to hell for just being gay period. I never could completely stop thinking that what I was doing was a sin. So I left the church and seeking God and just gave up on ever being a Christian.
I don’t have many Christian friends since I just got saved in April and I certainly don’t have any friends who are walking the same path as I am with SSA. Thanks for being a good Christian brother. God Bless you!
Dave, I just clicked your name on Heather Joy’s blog, which brought me here. I have to say the initial impression, although brief, was one of shock. Hope you can understand.
I have a friend or two that are lesbian. As far as I know, I don’t know anyone personally who is a homosexual (male). Even though I find same sex attraction repugnant, I do not deny it exists, even naturally. On the other hand, I don’t subscribe to the idea that people are born “gay.” We were designed by our Creator with certain certain type of procreation in mind. But I do understand that, as with many other types of sin, some have tendencies more toward one, while not towards others.
I appreciate your honesty. I sympathise with your struggle. How? Well, as a straight male with a wife and kids, I still am tempted with sexual sin, such as lust, fornication, adultery, etc. But what I have to do is choose to not yield to those temptations. Is this not the same with men or women who are attracted to the same sex?
If you ever read my blog, especially a particular post criticizing the activities of Home Depot, please realize that I have a sincere love in my heart for the homosexual and lesbian. I want them to come to Christ. But I also see an organized effort by many to devalue, deride, and destroy the biblical institution of marriage, if only for the sole purpose to justify their wanton desire to fulfill their lusts. If ever I show anger or bitterness, it is not meant toward the individual, but the sinful lifestyle. And incidentally, that sinful lifestyle is essentially the same as one that promotes promiscuity, infidelity, adultery, and lawlessness with in the heterosexual crowd.
I pray that God will help you through your struggles as He shows you the grace that we all are in desperate need of. And always remember, regardless of your sin, regardless of my sin, we were loved before our sins were even committed.
Anthony
Hi, I’m not Dave but am a man in a similar situation. There are a couple of things I want to say in responce. First, I don’t know if I was born gay or not, but I do know that I have never experienced heterosexual attraction towards anyone, and that I don’t know how to start doing that or how to stop feeling homosexual attraction towards certain men. Believe it when I say that it is not for lack of trying. Mind you, I don’t know a huge number of gay people myself since I have always generally avoided that community to avoid temptation. But most of the gay people I do know, including sexually active non Christian ones, did not want to be gay and would prefer not to be gay if given an alternative that their bodies would cooperate with. For sure there are bisexuals out there who could make do with a woman who pursue homosexual relationships, so my experience is far from universal.
As far as the love you have for the homosexual and lesbian, I know that. At least I know that this is true with most Evangelicals who protest against gay marriage and the like. In fact, two things I tell other gay men when the subject of Evangelicals come up are: One, unlike fundamentalist Muslims, Evangelical Christians want to save us not kill us. Two, if this country were ever taken over by Nazis or fundamentalist Muslims and the government started rounding up gay people to execute them, a sub set of those same Evangelicals protesting gay marriage would be risking their own lives by hiding us in their basements in an effort to save our lives. This said, the Evangelical community does not do a very good job expressing the grace of Christ towards gay people.
Actually let me backup a bit. I actually think there is a bigger issue here than Evangelical verses gay. It has to do with the church’s mission. While Christians in a democracy do have a responsibility to try and use their vote and free speech to try and influence the government and culture in godly ways, winning the culture wars is not our primary responsibility, and I would say that it is not the responsibility of the church as an institution at all. You are more likely to win the culture wars in a republic by winning the masses to Christ anyway than through political action. The responsibility of the church is to make disciples of all nations and to teach them all that Christ commands. According to Revelations the mission of Christians is to defeat the devil “through the blood of the Lamb, through the word of their testimony and through not loving their own lives even unto death.” What happens when the church and Christians get focused on the culture wars is that our mission becomes about politics. You win political battles by demonizing your opponent and feeding people’s fears about your opponent. Fear should not be a big motivator for a person who loves not his own life even unto death. Even your description of gays above reflects mostly an attitude of fear that they are out to take something away from you as it relates to marriage. My hunch is that most of them don’t really care what you do in your marriage. For sure a lot of them don’t want you passing laws that tell them what to do. When the church or when Christians are primarily about winning the culture wars their response to the homosexuality becomes one of talking about the gay community to other people in an effort to defeat the gay community politically rather than addressing the gay community with love in an effort to win them to Christ and draw them to repentance. When Obama speaks to Romney in a political debate, he is not out to win Romney to the Democratic view of the universe. Obama has only one goal, defeat Romney even if it means making Romney look worse in the eyes of others than he is. (This works the same in reverse.) Anyway, the mission of the church and of Christians as individuals is not one of defeating gays or the gay agenda. It’s to make disciples out of gay people and all other kinds of people. Given this the church needs to focus more on speaking to the gay community with the goal of winning some gays to Christ rather than speaking about the gay community in an effort to demonize it and to spread fear about it as part of an effort to defeat it politically.
Lastly, I would like to pose another proposition. The gay movement can only pose a threat to the biblical institution of marriage if Christians and Christian churches adopt the gay social and moral agenda. Here I guess I’m tipping my Jeffersonian libertarian hand. The solution to the marriage question is to get the government out of it all together, and leave “the marriage business” to the ecclesiastical sphere. I know of no references in the Bible to governments sanctioning marriages. Instead, simply have the government deal in civil unions which any two consenting adults can enter into for tax, insurance and inheritance purposes. By doing it this way we can avoid the situation where the government eventually says that it will not recognize a pastor’s credentials to marry unless they consecrate gay marriages. That would be very bad and destructive for the church, and getting the government out of the business of marriage all together would help circumvent that situation should the Christian community continue to become a smaller portion of the general population.
Anyway, focus on winning people to Christ and you might win the culture eventually. Focus on fighting the culture wars through political action, and you will continually become more marginalized as the relative size of the Evangelical population continues to shrink. And shrink it will because gays and other non-Christians will conclude that the church hates them and wishes them harm instead of thinking that Evangelicals really love them and want to see them saved.
Marcus,
I don’t know if you were actually responding to my comment, but if you were, I appreciate your thoughtful words. Your ideas of separating ecclesiastical marriages from government-sanctioned ones is a legitimate option, but I guess that could be its own debate.
There is also much to be said about reaching out to gays, as opposed to running them away. How are people supposed to learn of Christ from His followers if His followers never seek to bring anyone else onto the path? But as you well know, it is not as easy as it seems. This is one of those areas where making relationships takes a proactive effort.
This is a terrific thread.
Marcus,
thank you so much for explaining this. It has been very valuable for me to read.
I have a few friends who are gay. Through conversations with them and through reading posts like yours I am getting a better understanding of homosexuality. Thankyou for taking the time to explain 🙂
You wrote: “First, I don’t know if I was born gay or not, but I do know that I have never experienced heterosexual attraction towards anyone, and that I don’t know how to start doing that or how to stop feeling homosexual attraction towards certain men. Believe it when I say that it is not for lack of trying.”
I am so sorry things are so hard for you. I really admire your courage and character for practising what you believe in.
If only more Christians could read this to get a better and more accurate understanding of people living with same sex attraction.
Rather than the ruminations and speculations shared between heterosexuals we need more and more homosexual people to express their honest experiences. To tell their story. You have a unique experience since you are also a Christian. We need honest accounts like yours to cut through the misinformation and confusion. We need this to show the stereotypes and hatemongering for what they are.
I just wanted to express my thanks 🙂
Kind regards, Ryan
Dave,
Full disclosure, I’ve only skimmed your blog, but I did get a sense of your struggle. I’ll read more when I get the chance. I’ve been there. I went to the Christian schools. I graduated from Bob Jones University. I struggled with my homosexual feelings. I tried to understand how God could make me gay, yet forbid me to have a relationship that I innately desired and needed. I spent well over a decade thinking I could pray the gay away. It didn’t work. It will not work.
This moral questioning you are struggling through, while important, can be exhausting and eventually self destructive. After finishing graduate school, my struggle boiled down to this particular conundrum: Either God is a horrible and vindictive God (for making me gay yet forbidding me any emotional or physical fulfillment), or my church’s interpretation of the Bible is flawed. I chose to believe the later. The day I came to this conclusion my real life began. Gone was the constant guilt. Gone was the idea that I was a mistake. Gone was the loneliness. Gone was the anger at my parents (because I bought into that psychobabble that says gayness is caused by an overbearing mother or absent father). Most of all, gone was the FEAR!
I’m now a happy, out 40 year old man with a wonderful partner who is the son of a Pentecostal minister. You are almost 30 years old. Aren’t you tired of this never ending struggle? You deserve better. Too many Christians don’t want to believe it, but life can be messy. I made my own “mistakes” while coming out. I learned from all of them. I even enjoyed some of them. Life is meant to be lived David. If the God of the Bible is some old man in heaven with a report card ready to drop my grade because of a bunch of “rules” in one 2000 year old book. THAT isn’t the God for me. Deep down, you have to believe that there is nothing right or wrong with your sexuality. It just is. Embrace it. Stop living in fear. It gets better.
If you haven’t watched this…. Please do. While it may begin with Bullying, the city councilman’s story is moving (4:30 mark). I can’t get through it without crying. All that pain….. the pain that you are going through now. That pain is not coming from God. It is coming from misguided men and women of God who know nothing about what you are going through. You may not be able to accept it now, but God loves you…. The gay you.
I very much relate to and appreciate your comments. The message about suicide and bullying was on target. And though I can’t speak for Dave, I can say as I get older restraining sexual sin seems to get harder not easier. Actually I should say that the issue is no longer primarily about sex but a desire for affection, a companion and human touch, but if I pursued these with a man I know good and well that sex would come eventually. This said, if the Bible is the word of God… Jesus said: “He who would save his life shall lose it, and he who would lose his life for Christ sake shall save it.” In another place he said count the cost. In another place Jesus said: “The gospel is like a man who found treasure in a field and went and sold all that he had a bought the field.” In another place he says: “The gospel is like a merchant who finds a purl of great price and then sells all that he has to buy the purl.”
Sadly, in your idea or sense here too “gone” is the Bible’s Authority. And as Luther, here alone we find our conscience! Romans 1:18-32, is still speaking to our Gentile world! It was here that St. Paul was speaking to the Roman Christians. So in God’s creation & order we must all control our sexual desire and behavior! And as I have said, we are simply more than our sexual self!
“We must all control our sexual desire and behavior” – *sigh*
You do see a difference don’t you? Under your view of Biblical sin, YOU can exercise and express your emotional and sexual desires the day you marry. Under your view of Biblical sin, Dave and I must essentially be a eunuch (emotionally and sexually) our entire life. An entire life without love.
I will repeat what I said earlier. If God made me with desires for the same sex and that God refused me any exercise of those core feelings, that God is evil. That God is asking Dave and I to live in a state of emotional torture for the rest of our lives. That is NOT the God I understand from the Bible.
You can throw all the Bible verses you want at me that you think spells out homosexuality as a sin. They have been overanalyzed by others. My truth forces me to evaluate those passages through my own reality.
I decided 15 years ago that I was not going to be an emotional eunuch based on someone else’s Biblical interpretation. Thank God! My torture ended on that day. I hope Dave can set asside the shackles that others have placed on him.
James,
Forgive me, I don’t want to challenge your thoughts about homosexuality, but I do want to challenge a particular statement you made. You said, “My truth forces me to evaluate those passages through my own reality.” This greatly concerns me, especially in the light of what constitutes proper biblical interpretation. You SEEM to be saying that what the Bible has to say about a particular subject can’t say what it seems to say if it contradicts your personal understanding of life.
I would like to leave you some quotes from Henry Virkler’s text on hermeneutics that pertain to what you SEEM to have said. If I misunderstood you, then please forgive me.
“Perhaps the most basic question in hermeneutics is, Is it possible to say what constitutes the valid meaning of a text? Or are there multiple valid meanings? If there are more than one, are some more valid than others? …E. D. Hirsch, in his volume Validity in Interpretation, discusses the philosophy that has been gaining acceptance since the 1920s: the belief that ‘the meaning of a text is what it means to me.’…In the study of Scripture, the task of the exegete is to determine as closely as possible what God meant in a particular passage, rather than ‘what it means to me.’ By accepting the view that the meaning of a text is what it means to me, God’s Word can have as many meanings as it does readers. Such a position provides no basis for concluding that an orthodox interpretation of a passage is more valid than a heretical one: indeed, the distinction between orthodox and heretical interpretations is no longer meaningful.”
Henry A. Virkler and Karelynne Gerber Ayayo, Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2007), 22-23.
See my response to James below.
One day a rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked: “How can I enter the kingdom of God?” Jesus answered, “Love God with all your mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself”. The young man said: “I did these things since my youth.” Jesus said: “Oh, really?” Go sell all that you have and come follow me.” The young man went away sad because he was very wealthy. James, one thing that me, you, and Dave can know which a lot of our straight friends will never understand is just how big an idol our sexuality, our desire for intimacy, our desire for human touch and our desire to just share our home with a life companion can be. Lots of straight people will read the story of the rich young ruler and never really address the issue of heart idolatry because there are lots of rich people in the Bible who were never challenged to sell their possessions. The issue for the rich young ruler is that he was lying to himself and Jesus when he said that he loved God with his whole heart and his neighbor as himself. Jesus exposed this lye by showing the young man and us that he loved his money more than God and neighbor.
Many a straight Christian will go through life only to discover in the end that they were self deceived because their real heart idols were never challenged in this life in the way that the rich young ruler’s heart idol was challenged. Yes, the gospel calls us gay people to live lives as eunuchs so to speak. Not only can not have sex lawfully, as would be the case for single straights, I also can’t kiss a lover or hug a lover or hold a lovers hand which a single straight can do. And, this will never change apart from a water into wine sort of miracle. Maybe Jesus was talking about us when he comments that “some men make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God.” (I don’t plan to have an operation any time soon.) I would be lying if I did not admit that this issue has become a much bigger struggle for me over the last few years now that my heart cravings have come to be more about companionship rather than about sex. The fact is whether we are gay or not the gospel though free is very hard and is meant to be hard. To the straight man and to the gay man, the message of the cross is come and die. The one advantage that we gays may have over most straight people is that the “come and die” part of the gospel message is a little more in our faces. My hunch is that a lot of straights only ever hear “come so that you may have life.” and never come to have life on account of them never really hearing “come and die.” James my sense is that you are also choosing not to hear “come and die”. James, today is a good day to die. Come and die with me. Jesus said: “He who will save his life shall lose it, he who would lose his life for Christ sake shall save it.” I have already told you the parables of the Purl of Great Price and the Hidden Treasure. Whatever we have to give up in this life the Lord will make it worth our while in the end. I’m preaching to myself more than you because the fact is I’m really struggling with this stuff myself. I am in no position to judge anyone over these matters right now. God bless.
In the end, we all must approach the Holy and Sacred Scripture with all that we are in ourselves: body, mind and soul, but redemptively by God In Christ! (2 Cor.7:1)
See my last response to James above.
It is true that homosexuality is a sin. But so is every other sin a man commits. God views them all the same way. If you think he views homosexuality as worse, YOU ARE WRONG! All sin is abominable to him because he is holy.
That is why he sent us Jesus. That is why Jesus paid such a grievous price to redeem sinful man, So that who soever believes in him shall be saved from the consequences of sin that Adam and Eve past down to us. Our job is to believe in the one God sent. Jesus said I will save you and get you to heaven. People have this idea that when we repent of our sins, and become born again our sinful nature suddenly disappears. It doesn’t. Jesus will change us in many ways, but because we are human we will never be perfect. There are many things we were born with that we will never be rid of. However as long as we believe and trust in him, to save us and we live our lives, we will be saved. I commend the writer of this blog for taking up that message. The real good news. That God chose to save all mankind via the belief in Jesus. No matter who or what they are. Gay or straight, murder of fornicator etc. The only condition is faith and belief in the savior he sent. That is what will get us into heaven. Not our works or conscious human effort to abstain from all the problems Adam’s fall from grace left us with in terms of sinful human nature.
If you doubt it, just read Luke 18:9-14. The parable of the tax collector capture it best.
Pingback: Christians and Homosexuality « Baptist Thinker's Blog
Just came across your blog today. I am a heterosexual female evangelical believer. I haven’t read much of your blog at this point, but what I have read I respect and appreciate. This is complicated issue that concerns me and I hope that your writings help myself as well as others to separate the various pieces such that we can act with the correct balance of truth and love. Thanks.
Dawn in NJ
Here is a better explanation http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html
God’s Creation was of an unadulterated heterosexuality. To give ourselves a label, “gay”, defies your Creator and acknowledges your own willful lifestyle of sin that is separate from a God who commands us to “Go, and sin no more”. If you aren’t having an inappropriate relationship with a man, then you are not gay, you are just one who struggles with sinful thoughts. Calling yourself gay just seems to make excuses for yourself that you can enjoy this specific sin more than others could.
Bragging about being an alleged ‘gay Christian’ just sounds awfully non-repentant, to those who are just reading those words. Its a source for causing others to stumble and we all know the strong words that Jesus had for those that cause dissension or stumbling in others.
God call us not to judge, but to speak the Truth in love. The Biblical examples by Jesus show forgiveness to harlots, adulterers, thieves and tax collectors who changed through genuine faith and sanctification……but those such as the unrepentant homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah, who refused to change from the lifestyle of homosexuality…….he utterly burned this faithless city. So, we could label God as ‘Intolerant’ or we could see the obvious lesson here. Its up to the reader…..
I appreciate the comment, Vickie, but I fail to see how it relates to how I describe myself since I am not a ‘practicing homosexual’ and have never been in a long-term relationship or anything like that.
I’m not aware of bragging at all; in fact, I’ve made it very clear that I practice repentance on a daily and hourly basis. I would wager that you do not, in fact, “Go and sin no more.” This is why Christ died…and all of my sin (and the sins of all who believe) was laid on Him.
Vickie,
I have some very choice words for you, but I doubt Dave would appreciate that kind of language on his blog. You OBVIOUSLY have not even read his blog or you would not have posted the ignorant and offensive things you did to Dave. You, Vickie, have one motive – HATE. There was NOTHING loving about your post. You jump on someone’s blog and blather one about something you know NOTHING about to someone you know NOTHING about.
If you truly are a “Christian”, you need to reevaluate your principles. At the very least, go away.
Sorry to be so direct Dave, but people like Vickie need to be called out. She is the type of “Christian” that is giving Christianity a bad name.
Hi Vickie, to be honest, speaking as a Christian man who is homosexual, has been celibate for 47 years and is experiencing as season of temptation, this is not helpful at all. Dave is not advocating homosexual behavior nor do I see any evidence of him engaging in it. The Bible teaches “admonish the the unruly and strengthen the week.” Some of us need some encouragement to hang in there and not to be attacked with verses we know about.
Now let’s say some things regarding what the Bible says about homosexuality. Let’s be clear, the Bible views homosexual activity as sin. I tend to not think that homosexual orientation in itself is sin for two reason. There are no passages in Scripture that say anything about homosexual orientation and on account of the fact that a lot of us don’t want to be gay and do not know how to change the anatomical characteristics that attract us sexually. If I choose to have sex with a man or lust after him, yes that is a choice, and it is a sinful choice. But if I happen to notice that a man is attractive sexually but do not pursue it mentally or physically, how is that more sinful than if a married man notices a beautiful woman but does not pursue her mentally or physically.
The next thing I want to say is let’s talk about Sodom and Gomorrah a bit. My hunch is that you would view rape and murder as being far more serious crimes than gay sex between two consenting men or women. In the Sodom & Gomorrah story the men of Sodom wanted to rape and possibly kill the visiting angels. I’m sure that the homosexual nature of what they wanting to do was an Aggravating offense. But we don’t actually know how the story would have gone had instead of a lynch mob showing up at Lot’s door, that a nice young man came over to share a meal and ended up inviting the angels to his house for some mutual fun. They would not have gone, I’m sure and they probably would have corrected the guy or tried to. But there was a lot more going on in Sodom than just homosexuality, and you need to admit that when discussing this.
Here is how I view it. The OT says: “You shall not lay with a man as with a woman for it is confusion.” This is not one of the ten commandments, it is instead one of many social commands found in Leviticus and repeated in a couple of places. I know of no laws addressing homosexual lust directly. However, it is safe to assume that Jesus’ treatment of heterosexual lust applies. “Whoever lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart.” The Bible says way more about heterosexual adultery than it does about homsexual sin of any kind.
Now we really need to talk about Romans Chapter One a bit, and we may get some insight as to where homosexuality stands in the hierarchy of sins if it is legitimate to talk in such terms at all. First Paul says “I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe.” Then he goes on for three chapters building a legal case against all mankind to demonstrate that we have all sinned and need salvation. He starts his case by saying that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. He then goes through a list of sins typical for pre-Christian pagans. He starts with confusion between the Creator and creature. “They worship the creature rather than the creator. Then he mentions male and female homosexuality where where there is confusion in the area of sexuality. Then he lists a whole bunch of other sins including disobedience to parents. To the extent that homosexuality is being singled out in this passage, it is on account of it being a sin that illustrates confusion in the area of worship spreading to other areas of life. In the ancient near east, homosexual practice was very much associated with pagan worship. So the confusion between creator / creature and the confusion of same sex relations very much went together. Anyway, when properly understood, one needs to be careful about making out that homosexuallity is somehow the ultimate sin. It’s serious, no doubt. But I do not know of an instance where a person was killed by god for a homosexual act on account of its homosexual nature alone. As for staying in the closet and lying about it. Well, we do have the example of Ananias and Sophira being struck dead on account of lying to the church about some property they sold.
Thanks for identifying as gay. I am a gay United Methodist. A friend Facebooked me the link to your blog.
I hope the following link will be informative and helpful for the readers of this blog. The top story is mine. There are some very moving stories here.
http://lgbt-bju.org/
I looked at the website. Having a better understanding of what you are reacting against helps me to have a lot more compassion for you. I have had just enough experience with Smokey Mountain Fundamentalist Independent Baptist Churches to know that I would just wither and die in a place like Bob Jones University. I am struggling with the attitudes of a few people in my denomination, but I admit it; they are nothing like what you dealt with. So, my hat is off to you. But, this does not negate what I said about the message of the cross which says to gay and straight alike, “come and die.” Thanks and God bless.
Marcus
for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are ONE in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:26-28
These are the fundamental doctrines… summed up, as it were, in two words, — the new birth, and justification by faith. – John Wesley
Thank you very much for this site.
– Gay and Wesleyan
Hi.
I’m located in Chicago, identify as lesbian, and attend a Welcoming Church.
I’m wondering if you could assist me with forwarding an anonymous questionnaire meant for LGBTQ Evangelicals. I have been posting on various social media sites, so I’m wanting a random sample (location not important).
The purpose of this questionnaire is to better understand the needs of those in the Evangelical community who are either questioning their sexual orientation, are completely out and proud, or are somewhere in-between. Instead of a check-box survey, this questionnaire encourages participants to share their thoughts, experiences, and opinions using their own words.
Once a sufficient amount of participants have answered, the information will be consolidated and shared with trustworthy LGBTQ-Affirming Christian church leaders. The feedback will help ministers in LGBTQ-Affirming churches to create and nurture safe spaces for LGBTQ / Questioning Evangelicals to explore their beliefs without pressure to make any life-altering decisions.
Here’s the link to the questionnaire:
http://rainbowunbroken2.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/lgbtq-evangelicals/
Thank you,
Suzanne
rainbowunbroken2{at}gmail{dot}com
Dear Dave,
I feel strongly that God has led me to your blog when I’m earnestly searching to understand if celibacy in a gay relationship would be pleasing to God.
Could you please mail me? would love to be in correspondence with you. I am 32 year church deacon who is attracted to man. I live in [edited] and am convicted that reformed theology is the the most faithful interpretation of the Bible as the inerrant word of God.
In Christ,
Sam
Hi Dave,
Sorry if you have already answered this question previously
I wanted to respectfully ask:
As a man who is attracted to men, do you find yourself sexually attracted to women in any way whatsoever?
sorry if this is a strange question, Im speaking from ignorance. I’d be really interested to know.
Ryan.
I don’t think it’s a strange question. Let me answer it this way:
I’ve met 2 girls in my lifetime that I was sufficiently attracted to that I wanted to date. I was attracted to them physically, spiritually, intellectually–the whole package.
My day to day experience, however, is that I’m interested enough in men only that I will often be hanging out with friends who will bring up a party or a dinner situation and say, “Remember female-so-and-so at the BBQ the other night?” to which I will reply, “Who?”
So, the short answer is, yes, I’ve been attracted to women. 2 in 30 years. I have never just been walking along and been like, “SHE’S cute,” though. My attraction has developed after a friendship has begun.
Thanks for explaining.
You mentioned that you were attracted to these two women physically, spiritually, intellectually–the whole package.
Does physically mean sexually in this context? What I mean is did you ever have a desire to be with them sexually or just physically?
I guess what im asking is
have you honestly ever really wanted to have sexual relations with a women?
Not just physical affections but actual sexual relations?
again, I hope Im not being offensive
kind regards, Ryan
Pingback: Gay and Evangelical « Don Hartness
Wow, your voice is a much needed one in our Christian ranks. Thank you for your transparency and honesty. I have a dear friend who has admitted a similar temptation, but remains single to this day because of it. I can’t say I totally understand his, or your, struggle, but I have great respect for your decision to yield yourself wholly to God. God Bless You!!!!
Hey, I stumbled on your blog completely by accident by searching for a picture of someone “alone in the snow” to use on my blog which is about my struggle with same-sex attraction as well. I hope to get the chance to read through your blog. Know I am praying for you, and I ask that you’ll pray for me (I really need it)!
I am moved by your story. You are a light to many Christian who in the same battle and even large group that need to understand, love, encourage and battle together for the glory of God.
My wife and I are helping my church to build broken bridges between gay and Church and build brodges that would change life, for in Christ we died and rose for glory. I am a sinner, righteous in Christ alone, just like my brothers and sisters who struggle with SSA.
Thank you for an awesome blog, address hard topic, in God centered Theology.
Your new blog follower and reader,
Prayson
Greetings brother, and thanks for your courage and honesty. I hope and pray that the tide is turning to greater inclusion of homosexual Christians in evangelical churches. Have you followed this great news?
http://denziljournalist.com/2013/01/20/steve-chalke-and-homosexuality/
Thank you for your clear explanation (and your gentle answers to the aggressive!). As a theologically conservative, heterosexual, male Methodist minister, allow me, based on what I have read here, to name you my brother in Christ, my fellow disciple, my better. I have, after all, less of a burden to bear than you do. God bless!
Thank you for your kind words, Q.
I dunno about less to bear. Being a conservative in the Methodist church isn’t exactly a cakewalk these days, eh? 🙂
LOL (with tears)!
Hi,
I haven’t read a whole lot of your posts yet, but I’ve really been encouraged by what I’ve read so far (and I’ll definitely read more). I really respect you for voicing your opinion in spite of the fact that it catches a lot of criticism from both sides, the gay community (because you say the behavior is sin) and from the Christian community (from those who think it’s not ok to even be tempted or to identify yourself as gay). I just wanted to say thank you for being brave enough to put these well-reasoned and Scripture-based thoughts into cyberspace. I have one friend who is lesbian and so, unlike a lot of evangelicals, I’ve started to get an understanding of the fact that she didn’t really choose to be that way and that she can’t just repent and be “cured” from having homosexual inclinations. But it has bothered me that so many people then think that if a person is “born gay” or naturally inclined that way, that that automatically justifies the behavior, and they’re willing to toss out the Scripture that says otherwise. I’m impressed that you don’t do that. I feel like that kind of argument would be similar to saying “Well, my family is genetically more inclined to be alcoholics, so it’s ok for me to get drunk”, or “I was born a pyromaniac, so it’s ok for me to commit arson.” Or even the fact that we have any sexual attractions at all it’s ok to fulfill them outside of marriage. And so the conclusions I’ve come to are that we all have our various temptations, homosexual behavior being merely one of many (although much more stigmatized by the church, sadly) and yet God calls us to holiness. But you are one very few I’ve run into who, I think if I understand you right, seems to agree with me about this. For those of us who are in Christ, He has removed the punishment of sin from us and has given us His perfect righteousness. But our sinful human nature remains in us for now with it’s temptations. And it is His Spirit and grace alone that enables us to walk in obedience and covers us when we don’t. I don’t struggle with homosexuality myself, but I’m 26, single, and therefore celibate, which is different in some ways, but also similar in many. James’s comments wondering how God could call someone to live as an emotional and sexual eunach (which applies equally to us both) strikes a chord. But “is the servant greater than his Master?” Our culture tells me to follow my heart, to fulfill my desires, that it’s fine to indulge in porn, or sleep around. And yet I believe that God calls me to purity and chastity until/unless I am married. And I believe that His thoughts are higher than mine, and that His design for relationship is best (for individuals, for couples, and for His glory). And that His relentless love is more than enough for me. So in spite of what others say, and in spite of my own temptations, I have to daily make a choice to trust Him. But some days are just harder than others to do that. Thank you for reminding me that there are others fighting this fight and that His grace is sufficient.
Thanks for your kind words. I think you have summarized really well what I think on the matter and appreciate your encouragement. The guys over at Spiritual Friendship are other like-minded folks.
Hi Dave,
I just stumbled upon your blog. I too am reformed in my theology and have been almost exclusively attracted to men for my entire life. I say almost, because I am married to the only woman I’ve ever been attracted to. Still, there are a lot of issues to work out, and while I’m doing so, I’ve been blogging about it as well.
Also, I see that you are from/in St. Louis. I have a really good friend there. From what I hear, God’s doing some great work there, raising up strong, biblical churches.
Thanks for your kind words. I am both residing and from St. Louis…and there is indeed great work going on here. I speak with folks from First Light ministries here in town; if you google them, you’ll find them. I look forward to perusing your blog when I have a few free moments. 🙂
Dave, I believe we have mutual friends. I saw her retweet or repost your “tired” blog. I am SO encouraged to hear you speaking out. We need more men and women like you to help the church love all people! I am amazed at your strength and your grace towards people in general. May God bless you with relationships that this side of heaven will continue to encourage you and fill you up!
Thank you for the encouragement!